Minister Kelly to close the Corporate Transfer Loophole?
Roy November 9th, 2012
Minister Kelly, in the Dail recently, said:
“The Taxi Regulation Bill will also provide for the prohibition on the transfer of a vehicle licence, including in circumstance concerning the change of ownership of a company.”
So all those individuals who transferred their plates into company names cannot transfer plates with the company?
It’ll be interesting to see what the “experts” make of the above statement.
- Taxi News
- Comments(127)
When was the last time any politician actually did something positive for the taxi industry ? I am still waiting for the first one. Waiting for Godot !
Kelly has no power to act here, he is a fool
will this have implications for ebbs , and his 100 new octavias?
Hmmm…..
Like l always say, “Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it …. with a loads of *****t”!
…….now this is getting very interesting!
did ebbs not transfer ownership of a hundred plates to his PAYE EMPLOYEES who rent his 100 new octavias as a way of circumventing the new rules or something like that ?
i am fed up looking at cabs around dublin every night sporting multiple area stickers . should they not be made declare for ONE area,? in fact i believe it should be one man one area, one man one plate, one man one job
Boh some of these stickers are bought in diy shops, no area test taken.
When KD made us change the roof to 5 digits. She said. It was now a national taxi licence.so we could ply for hire where you wish.one fukk up after another.so when she decovered she fukked up.she came up with the area sticker.it cost us hard earned to change the roofy number and more hard earned for the stupid area stickers.
Think about it.what did we get shafted.
A single area was supposed to be imposed via the proposed new aerodynamic roof sign, I believe it’s been held up due to the usual worries about poor mouth taxi drivers moaning about the cost.
Saw this rental plying last night : 25601 TAXI ACTIVE 25/08/13 02D4137 SEJIM MOTORS LTD ,no D sticker either and a phone number for “City taxis” 525252 in Galway ,up for the game ???
Franc how do you know if that vehicle is a rental
franc i think i know that taxi its a black toyota avensis and the man that drives it if its the same fella works with city taxi galway, he rents that car and plate of that sejim motors they are a dublin based car garage that also rent a load of taxis out all over the country. there isnt any sticker on the back of the plate but the front of the plate has a G.
@ Ben,You can check any plate number on the NTA website.
Loads of plates now working the city without County Letters,rentals and,I’m guessing guys that replaced the roofsigns that were damaged or stolen.
Another thing,if you pay €15 for new D stickers why are replacements only €3.50 or €4.00 ?
surely it would be cheaper to get replacement ones first ? lol
Franc i know about the nta website, but its stiill very hard to know if any car is a rental. That s my point. It should be marked on them somehow.
and why are the cops not fining drivers who don’t have an area sticker, or better again, seize the cars.
I spoke to my “tame” Garda. He was fully fired up about how he was going to change the world for the better when he came fresh out of Tullamore now some 7 years ago. Now he has long since given up. He just obeys the sarge and does as told. The taxi industry is in such a mess, they just harass the obvious ones and leave the rest. Unless the super tells the sarge who tells the constables to go out, set up a roadblock and see what they can dredge up out of the slime at the bottom of society. If a few stupid cabbies get caught, tough s…t. They are understaffed, fed up, see many criminals walk out of court either because they have been doing the paperwork at 3 in the morning and were tired so they missed a comma, or because a smart alec barrister got them off the hook on another technicality or they are let go because jail is full. They are fed up getting the “finger” from a know criminal after yet another judge and jury got soft on them. They are also fed up with criminals getting “concurrent” sentences for not rarely fairly severe crimes, so in fact they only get one and are free after serving half of one.
So they are tired, disillusioned, frustrated and take it out on the first one they see.
Often… yes, you guessed right: taxi drivers !
could somebody please explain in more detail what closing the corperate loophole means , i must admit i aint got a clue about what this means ? what compnies are you talking about is it radio companes that own these plates or who ?
Boh i think Kelly wants to stop transfer of ownership of plates owned by limited companies.
but that is be welcomed is not? so ben again i ask te question if it is the case that he wants to stop transfers of these plates, then surely this must have implications for ebbs , who i believe transfered 100 plates to his 100 new octavias and set these drivers up as limited companies ,as a way of circumventng the law ?
Do you think mp owners are going to take it lying down i don’t think so.i feel a high court case on the way.
i think this is more about limited companies, than mpo’s. Kelly seems keen to block the loophole that allows transfer of plates to continue next year, if they are sold as part of a limited company. But does Kelly have the power to stop any ltd company selling an assett. This will surely be appealed.
Some plates are owned by a company, it was believed that if the company was sold or transferred to a new owner the plate would move with it, the minister says they won’t
I can’t transfer my dog licence,why should a taxi licence be any different ?
now i know this is probably a stupid question , but why would a company like [say] woodies diy for instance want to own taxi plates ? what possible interest could they have in owning such licences ,i have never understood this ? please explain where the benefit lies for them
Did you pay 6 and a half k for a dog licence talk sence.all this talk about none transfer of licences is Kelly looking like he is trying to sort out the taxi industry.Its a bottle of smoke.its not going to happen.so far he is has done fukk all.he is no different from the arsehole before him wake up FFS .
again why would any company want to own a taxi licence ? i dont doubt that some companies do own these licences, but why ? sure what befefit is there in that for them ?
probably just to rent them, pure greed
Can someone tell me how drivers “pass” for so many counties ?
Surely, it is impossible to know them all.
I drove behind one, roof sign lit, who seemed to have stickers for just about every county on the light box EXCEPT Dublin, which was where we were of course
I was unable to see what he was doing because I was flagged down by a punter just as he had already past the spot. So I made the knee-jerk reaction: I picked him up and lost sight of “Multi-County Man”. Jayz, he had so many silver stickers he nearly ran out of space on the roof box !
Oh, btw: why would a company want to own the licences ?
Simple: CONTROL !
They dont pass. LH.MH.D. you see them a lot. they were given them. small towns in LH.MH. were flooded with taxis. So they were given the D to stop the small towns being flooded. a lot of it has to do with a little place that used to be owned by a guy called billy butler. if you know what i mean. soft day.!!!!!
shows how the standards have dropped under do yles watch. too many people cannot find an address without satnav. lots of them can barely speak english.
make you wonder how they passed a written test ben, but then we know that some people just get their plates because others have taken the test for them , or the percenage required is not quite the same as that required by irish drivers . its amazing how people can have a vast knowledge of the area they propose to work in , yet in some cases they cannot even speak english . the licencing authority must think we are gobshites to believe these people know their way around ,and i suppose in reality we probably are
My God!
I have read it on at least two threads where some of you guys said and l quote: “Just tell the ‘customers’ anything, lie to them, make up stories, just anything to make them believe what we want them to believe (sic)”.
One of those instances was when you want them not to sign-up to “Hailo App”.
We have also seen instance when “a lady lied that she was ra.ped by a Taxi driver ….and her father turned out to be a Taxi driver as well”. I will intentionally leave out “nationality” in this discuss.
Now, with the above in mind, one is not surprised at the level of “deliberate and selective amnesia” you are displaying above, in the comments about “English, Area knowledge Test and Sat Nav’s”. I will break it down for you.
First, most non-Irish Taxi drivers speak far better English than than the average Irish Taxi driver. No pun intended.
At the risk of sounding rude, and l apologize if that’s how you ‘understand it’, l can say that majority of Irish Taxi drivers (and you can actually confirm this from the level of “sheer ignorance” in the posts above) are uneducated or at best, half illiterates!
Let us look at an average “immigrant” Taxi driver:
He put in a lot to leave his country, to live and work here.
Most have ” a life” before coming here and it would surprise you that most are “core professionals” in various fields but the current chronic unemployment means that they have been “shifted down” the pecking order, when it comes to seeking employment in an increasingly racist Irish society.
We have read about how Job applications with names “sounding immigrant” are just squeezed into the waste bin, at first sighting, in Irish business environment.
When these “highly skilled” peeps cant get employment, they resort to “SELF employment” jobs like driving a taxi but dont you ever imagine that you belong in the same “intellectual capacity” like them. Eventually, “water will find its level”.
As per “speaking English”, you need to understand (and l am giving you this “lecture” for free!) that there is a big difference between “accent” and “grammar” of English language.
Every nation has its own “native accent”….even amongst a single nation like Ireland, there still exist different “accent”. That is why a “Cork man” does not speak (and may be difficult to understand), like a “Dublin man” or “Cavan man”.
Because you cant understand their accent can make “English conversation” difficult but it does not mean they dont “understand or speak perfect English! Only a illiterate Muppet driving a taxi in Ireland, would not know that.
The Brits dont speak English (read: Accent) like the Irish nor the American; why would you expect an African immigrant (for example), to be different? That an immigrant driver does not understand your “accent” at first instance, does not equate to lack of versatility in English!
I guess that is one of the reasons Taxi suitability Test requires that you have a “Pen and Paper” in your Taxi.
And that brings me to the question of how they pass “written test”:
First, most immigrants attempt it an average of three times before they can reach the “exceptionally high” pass requirement of 80%, simultaneously in both “Area Knowledge and Rules of the Road”.
What this means is that even if you score 100% in one aspect and scored 79% in the other, its still a FAILURE and you still have to pay about hundred quid to retake the test!
I am well educated but l still have to do it 3times, over a period of six months before scaling through!
Now, where is the “its so easy for them to pass” coming from?
At the Prometric Test Center, your Picture (the actual person writing the test) is taken and it is this same picture that is embalmed on your Test results and goes on your eventual Driver License.
So, how can someone sit it for you? Please educate us.
It just like saying someone can still sit the Driver theory Test for another person, in 2012! How silly can that be?
On the other hand, the Irish Taxi driver was “exempted” from taking the test, when it was made a requirement…. (they were only required to sit just one, Area knowledge Test, if they want to “add an additional County of operation” to their existing one!),
Of course, most would never pass these two test simultaneously, if subjected to the same “level field” like the immigrants.
So, it is obvious that these “immigrants Taxi drivers” are smarter, more educated and more exposed that their bigoted Irish counterparts (not all of them l must confess, l have met wonderful Irish Taxi drivers and l keep meeting more) whose only achievement in 30years of driving a Taxi is to whine and moan all day!
On the issue of Sat Navs, l still repeat, if you are native born Irish and have driven a Taxi for say Ten years in Dublin for example, why do you (Irish) Drivers still carry a Sat Nav in your Taxis?
You use it and l do see you use it so, why should an immigrant whose is not even native born and has spent less years driving a Taxi, be an object of your ridicule, when he uses a Sat Nav?
Are you not even worse and should be ashamed to be carrying one in your Taxi?
Before you can “talk”, throw yours away first! “A Pot cannot accuse the kettle of being black”!
I feel if you had your way, you will ask government to legislate (as usual!) and ban the use of Sat Navs by immigrant Taxi drivers only! (lol).
I would have suggested you avail yourself of the “NTA Training facility” but l understand that you are just beyond redemption……… as your problem is not only sheer ignorance but a compendium Bitterness, Anger and many other things.
Get over yourself and stop being bitter and angry. It leads to health problems…especially Ulcers!
Stop these lies and negative propaganda against immigrant Taxi drivers, its one of the reasons this industry is in shambles, the “outside world and authorities” read and know the shyte you spill out daily!
Ben, don’t see how you can blame “Doyle’s lot” for the number of people with multiple area licences or the ease at which they were gained, that was/is the responsibility of the Gardai, I am quite certain that situation would be a lot better had “Doyle’s lot” been responsible for drivers licencing
AC you’d know all about spill.I don’t tell any lies about immigrants.i have to listen to the punters who tell me horrendous story’s about traveling in taxis with African drivers.so all your shyte you spill is not going to change the facts.
At the end of the day the proplem is there is far too many taxis and too few punters. simple. its got to the stage that nobody is making a living out of it anymore. and only those who have a second job or are scamming the welfare or who have a rich aunt hilda are the only ones who are going to survive. the rest of us can expect a slow painful exit out of it. and be left we bills we cant pay. wonderful. its a pile of shite.
Seagull. you wont be seeing any of us in nyc anytime soon. we have’nt got a pot to piss in. bless your little socks. we cant afford a day trip to bray on the train. sorry, bray is a seaside town about 40 mins south of dublin. its like a gettho by the sea. and when the sun comes out for 2 days in july it is over run with what you call “trailer trash” only our trailer trash are burned pink, have a plastic bag full of a vile cider called “dutch gold” a john player blue cigarette in their pie hole and a celtic jersey tucked into their 25 year old wrangler jeans. A three course meal to these people is a. candyfloss on a stick. b. a batter burger ( dont ask) and c. a wibbly wobbly wonder ( dont ask, again.) any way all you guys are invited home next summer. and im doing specials oneway trips to bray from the airport for 100 euro plus 2 euro toll and a nice tip. Dont mind that gabriel byrne talking about ripping you guys off. as we say in the old sod, he’s talking bollox. You take care me auld flower, c ya next summer.
The backbiting that is now going on does not serve anyone except maybe the “powers” that do not want any form of unity between us.
There are only a few true soundbites between the rubbish.
There are still drivers who have been in the business for many years.
Many, if not most, were true professionals who knew their area inside and out.
Unfortunately, we all were blinded by the opportunity to make a very decent living without much thought of the customer’s interest. I said “all” and I mean ALL. Some to a very small extend, others were creaming it and overcharging. This was the time when punters would sit in a waiting room on Saturday night / Sunday morning in the hope that eventually a taxi would be found willing to bring them home. This was the time when there were queues at the ranks until 4 am. This was the time when quite a few drivers would only work the week-end and play golf the rest of the week.
Many took out gynormous loans in order to promote from cosy to driver. It was a time when hacks would position themselves near a rank and make a mint, illegally. But they did.
After dereg the situation deteriorated. After Deering, a nincompoop with lots of blether and no substance came KD who turned out to be an ignorant, arrogant bee who knew nothing about the taxi industry and never made the slightest effort to really understand it.
Unfortunately, this was also the time when immigrants started to arrive and eventually found their way into the taxi business.
Around 7 or 8 years ago (and this was confirmed to me by Tommy Gorman) the newly established Regulator, probably yielding to pressure from other sources, allowed the required standard for new entrants (read: immigrants) to drop.
Perhaps it has become more demanding now and are we unfair to more recent entrants who probably possess all skills and knowledge, but the idea has taken root that “all immigrants are sub-standard taxi drivers”.
The argument that people from Donegal, Cork, Clare, Dublin, etc., speak English all with different accents (not to speak of the English themselves who also have many different accents, some barely understandable to people from other areas, the Scots, Americans, etc.) is very true. I once had a few people in my taxi from one company but from different countries and one, a Yank, asked me if I could translate what his colleague, a Dub, was saying.
But the nail in the coffin of our unity is caused not by immigrants, but by KD and her overlords in government. Because they have printed licences like confetti.
Mr. African Cabbie, there is nothing particularly racist in the notion that if a profession or market is saturated then the locals will start to resent competition from immigrants.
This is not as much racist but economy-driven.
Unfortunately, the sentiments this evokes not seldom are exploited by others. A very nasty example was a mad Austrian with a silly moustache who caused the death of millions some 70 odd years ago !
Thank you “everyone” that have read my post and posted their own “opinion” after it.
“That when an economy/industry is down, as Ireland/Taxi Industry, is right now, the “locals” transfer their aggression on the immigrants” IS VERY TRUE (Flybynite) …… it is “economy-driven”.
……But given that it is a reality, Question is: Is it right?
If you say it is right, then you must agree in the same stretch that what that mustachioed Austrian goon did to 70million ‘immigrants’ is also right….. but l know no decent person will agree to that!
The very racist aspect is when they try to tar “immigrants” with falsehood 9they cant speak English! By Jove, have l been writing in vernacular or what?
Instead of agreeing that the problem is “accent” which is a general problem, they use it to malign immigrant by telling punters all sorts of lie!
They intentionally “twist stories” to serve a wicked purpose (like saying immigrants get their driver license under the table or do some dodgy stuff to get it)
All l want is “let us state the FACTS as they are”….. if you dont have the “facts”, please REQUEST for it by FREEDOM OF INFO ACT.
Dont spew rubbish and lies, ignorantly or intentionally, just to assassinate the character of immigrants like me.
I know things are difficult (especially when l work for 8hrs on a weekend and cant even make 100Euros!
But it is not by tearing each other down or finger pointing at immigrants, that would solve the problem.
Even as an immigrant, l expect that some of these “righteous” people would have taken it on, to ENSURE that the Regulator STOP ISSUING OUT NEW DRIVER LICENSES!
One driver cannot drive two taxis!
So at best, if we have x-number of drivers, we should NEVER have more than that number of Taxis …but it would even be less since some “rent”.
So, by putting a ceiling on “new” driver license, we would have stopped the increase in number of Taxis. That would have been a good “start”.
But NTA still issued New Driver Licenses as of yesterday! Are they really serious about getting the numbers down or are they just interested in the “money” these new entrants shell out? That is where we need to direct our anger, mostly.
Secondly, and l have made such reasonable contribution in many threads, it has NEVER worked to “restructure a company” for profitability (read: taxi industry) just by sacking a particular cadre of staff, like say Junior Workers (read: immigrants!).
You have to use a “combination of critical decisions” to gradually reduce numbers (redundancy, re-training, output expansion, lowering of “input”/production costs, increasing efficiency and ‘downsizing’ as a last option.. but across thee board!).
Then we can look closer at the “enforcement process”, to plug loopholes that people take advantage of but this must be in ways “across board”, not just where it affects “new entrants” (Read: immigrants!).
I am all for “fairness” to EVERYONE but is EVERYONE for “fairness” to people like me? (read: dark skinned immigrant)
If Regulator does not increase the numbers by issuing out new licenses, a few will retire, some will find better jobs with time (l hope l will, as l have the requisite skills), some would emigrate, some would die, some would sell,e.t.c …. but the “numbers” will keep going down, …. as long as you dont add to it, and we would all be the better for it.
These are what we should be “uniting and fighting for”, not back-stabbing fellow drivers to punters and the Regulator!
They are not stewpid and they see our actions for what it really is! In return, we give them the impression that we are no-do-gooders and imbeciles, so they “reason” they can always make more money out of us…. The Taxi driver!
But how can the last paragraph happen, when we are too engrossed in the “same nature” of that “Mustachioed Austrian bully”?
sclass: You and a few people, need to have a re-think of your “mentality”.
is your concil house nice and warm acdc, maybe you would like to relocate. just call everyone racist as always, and you will get a new bigger house.
Last night I brought a woman to greystones.all the way out the conversation was about african taxi drivers and immigrants and how she waited in Dawson street for a Irish taxi driver.So AC good for me she and more people has that mentality.
fair play to that woman for buying Irish, we need more people like her. ignore the foreign scum.
Stop being an ediot, Ben!
I dont live in a council house. I have a mortgage l am paying and by the way, as usual, you tend to tarnish immigrants with a brush?
Is it only immigrants that live in Council houses?
On a percentage basis, Irish Vs. immigrants living in Council houses is like 70% to 30%. &0% &0% of Coucil houses are occupied by Irish people.
Go to the Housing councils and get your FACTS, instead of openly spewing racist garbage!
Sore looser!
If you have nothing better to say, other than “l would lie and say anything just to give others a bad image” (that is what you posted earlier, remember?) ….Just shut you smelly trap!
Ben,
I think you are crossing a line where decency ends.
There are indeed immigrant taxi drivers (read “African” if you like) who came here because Ireland, up to about 5 years ago, seemed to need all the labour force we could get. Of course there are those who came here because they heard that they can get everything they need for free. Just sign up and get paid. And nobody would check up if you did work on the side. There are opportunists but there are also decent, skilled and honest people who came here to WORK. Many found that when the money dried up, they had to settle for a lot less than they were qualified for. And so many immigrant workers, skilled and qualified in professions they could not longer find employment in, did NOT want to sit and get the dole but preferred to do honest work ended up driving a taxi.
That the market is now saturated, overfull and the number of customers has dropped is NOT their fault.
Our government has no problem signing off on paypackets for failed bankers in the order of 40 grand a MONTH, bankers who should be in jail. Bankers whom I would not like to employ stacking supermarket shelves.
Some greedy developers, with their assets in NAMA, get 200 a year for “managing” these assets. For what ? They could not manage them when they owned them !
At the same time essential services are cut. Schools, hospitals, you name it. No money except for sloppy stupid politicians and crooks.
So I HAVE to come out on the side of African Cabbie. He seems to have the courage to speak on behalf of the DECENT hard working immigrants who are also hard hit by the recession.
I know quite a few Irish professionals who had no choice but to emigrate. In my street I know at least one who went to Australia where they need skilled people in the building trade. What would happen if let’s say in 4 or 5 years’ time the boom ends there and they have to compete with the local Aussies for the few remaining jobs ?
I make a bet: the locals would start resenting the Paddies and Micks, just like the resentment that is now flying off this website .
Remember: It was immigrant labour that built the USA.
Those people were lucky, they country kept going. Even though in the 1930′s there was a big recession. But the large majority of the population were immigrants – or children of immigrants – so there was no build-up of resentment.
Yes, I would prefer to see immigrants return to their countries of origin.
I would like to see illegals who cheat, cream off the dole and work as illegal taxi drivers taken off the road, fined, dole money stopped and sent home.
But that does not warrant us starting to insult those who are legal, honest and are caught out just as badly as the rest of us.
Because they did not cause the recession !
And they did not shower taxi licences on every Ivan, Oshibu, Hulahashi and every immigrant who applied for one, legal or not, either !
The u s a and australia are continents .Ireland is a small island in the atlantic. No comparison why is the africans not flooding those countries
no they would not be allowed in to the extent that we are letting them in. because ireland is a soft touch. And yet Ireland’s young people are still leaving to find work abroad
In spain its local people drive taxis in portugal it local people drive taxis canary islands it s local people drive taxis
Not so in Ireland as a Dublin taxi driver i have a problem with that. So when african cable tries to preach to us about how we are over reacting and everything is fine and dandy im not so convinced.
Well, there are Irish in Canada as l write now…and Canada is a “country”, though larger than Ireland.
There are even Irish people living and working in various African COUNTRIES, South Africa, Nigeria, Ghana, Kenya, e.t.c.
Even Obama and the millions of African Americans in the USA all came from Africa or from parents who came from Africa.
Again, if we use the analogy of “continent” to justify “who” should be “where”, then ‘maybe’ sclass will then agree that since Ireland is a ‘small country”, its citizens should not be allowed into other “places” that are “continents”?
If you think Ireland is a “soft touch”, it is not Africans that made it so, focus your anger on those who you think are responsible for making ‘laws in Ireland’ …..afterall, it is not for nothing that a GNIB card renewal for “immigrants only”, just got increased from 150Euros, to 300 Euros! “Immigrants” are money-making venture for the Irish government!
Having said that, l am NOT asking anyone to be “accepting of or not to over-react” to immigrants.
I am SAYING, if you must write/speak, try and SPEAK THE TRUTH!
If you are ignorant or deliberately suffering form amnesia, try and get the FACTS from Government Agencies that have them, and report them as they are.
For example: Get the actual figures of “How many Taxi drivers are in Ireland ….. and How many of these are “African immigrants”. This will give you a percentage and thus determine if truly they have “flooded” Ireland as you are claiming.
Again, Go to Housing Council and get the figures: How many families are in Council houses in Ireland, How many of them are African immigrants?
Anything other than this is a “fudge” and an attempt to call a Dog a bad name, so you can hang it.
Dont just “manufacture lies” and regurgitate it over and over again,….. just to incite hatred!.
I am aware that even if the “FACTS” are to be forcefully stuffed into your head, you will still not comprehend and if you do, its the same garbage that you will spew out, because your “actual problem” is “racial hatred” and no amount of education can help you! You are A LOST CAUSE!
People like you, just like that Norwegian Nut-case that killed 80 people in Latoya, are not fit to be allowed public freedom, you pollute the society with your rabid hatred.
Flybynite, thanks for a “balanced opinion”.
Nuff said.
govt promotion . buy irish,support irish jobs . ya cant argue with that can ya ? so when i advise people to get into an irish driven taxi , all i am doing is supporting the govts policy arent i ? eh ?
nice one Boh
AC
Your problem is you think you are educated it is you that cannot comprehend. Because my livelihood is being affected by immigrants does not mean I hate them. I do not have a racial hatred for Africans or any one else.your missing the point as usual. Watching a program on RT news about the suffering and poverty in africa I sympathize with these people women are getting raped in the thousands. Life means nothing they are living in fear everyday.
So getting back to driving a taxi in dublin without calling us all racist and all the worst names you can think of maybe it’s you that is a lost cause.
i would concur with sclass on this one .i DO NOT hate immirgrants because they are africans ,poles,romainians, etc etc. what i DO hate is the fact that they are here taking from me what little work exist,and in a lot of the cases doing so ILLEGALLY . also in some cases with the assistance of the irish state , who are at pains not to be seen as racist, so therefore extend their help above,and beyond the call of duty. i personelly will never forgive mary robinson , who couldnt get you all in here quickly enough . this is a view shared by very many irish people
Explain what Mary Robinson has to do with the immigrant population
As usual, most of you are “living in denial”!
You are like the proverbial Ostrich that buries its head deep in the sand!
Even a thief and a murderer, caught in the act, does not want to be called a Thief or murderer! (lol)
You can say it a thousand times but anyone who discriminates against others based on “natural differences” (color, race, e.t.c) IS RACIST! And You are RACIST, Period!
You are always “angry and unforgiven” against one person or the other. If its not the Gardai, it is the regulator/ Kathleen Doyle, or it is Allan Shatter or Mary Robinson or Poles or Africans or the goddam air you breathe!
If you dont purge yourself of this hatred, you will pass-on before your time and you’ll do it being miserable as you are right now!
All your venom against us will not stop or deter us from legitimately living and working here! It will not happen until the day all the millions of “emigrating Irish” found in America, Australia, Canada, Africa, Britain, and Asia are forcefully returned back to Ireland. No wonder the country is more than half empty!
I have kids who are born Irish (not naturalized!) and they have a stake in this country, …. even a better stake than scumbags like you, because they would receive good education that idiots like you can never dream of…. and you know what that means in future? (If you dont, go and read Obama’s story). He is black and “related to Irish” by the way (lol)
There are immigrants working in Google, FaceBook, Ebay, Banks, Microsoft, Dublin Bus, Luas, e.t.c but only the Irish Taxi driver moans and whines all day long!
It shows, like someone said, that most Irish Taxi Drivers are the ‘lowest of the lowest scumbags’ of Irish society and what some of you here are displaying is an affirmation of that sentiment.
Taxi driving is a ‘zero skill’ job that any idiot can do.
No wonder most of you are aware that you can never be employable anywhere else because you’ve got nothing to offer than “turn a car steering”.
When l am done with you, at my own choosing, l can decide to move-up to a higher pecking order in the society but for now, you can shove it up where the sun does not shine!
I am enjoying myself and having a laugh at your foolishness.
Rave mad as much as you want, you will still see me at the “rank” tomorrow! LOSERS!!
A.C companys like Google, FaceBook, Ebay, Banks, Microsoft, Dublin Bus, Luas, e.t.c control the numbers of people who work there, if they opened it up to everyone and they had to share the total company wage bill around to all the extra people you would soon see them moan and whine to.and your comment about “taxi driving is zero skill” GET REAL.
The Nile, isn’t that where you used to live?
Sorry, I couldn’t resist!
C5,
The Taxi Regulator “regulates” the people who can work in the taxi Industry.
If it were opened to “everyone” then there would be no need for “Licensing”!
Truly, I keep getting more convinced that this Taxi business is replete with oafs! Gosh!!
Guys,
I think this subject has been has been exhausted to the point where all that is left is garbage and shite.
I do not like having to compete for work with hundreds of immigrants – in my own country.
There should have been stricter policies set and stricter criteria applied.
The government still lacks the will, call it courage, to stand up, check those who are creaming off the social welfare and stop paying cheats.
If they did that, many former bankers should be the first to be cut off.
Billionaires who do not pay any tax should be told that they have the choice: either pay or hand in their Irish passport.
Dole should be cut off from cheats and if they are immigrants they should be sent back to the country they came from.
I think we can all agree on these principles.
But there are also many immigrants who came here because our economy needed them. Until we found out that our economy was being pilfered by politicians, bankers and greedy developers.
And to add insult to injury, this im…..le Biffo, assisted by the late clueless Lenihan, handed the remainder of the purse together with the IOU’s to the bondholders. And so we all, us who did not really benefit from the fabled “Celtic Tiger” are left to foot the bill.
It is frighteningly easy to manipulate people.
Look at our criminally insane Austrian dictator who managed to convince the German people that the economy of Germany was destroyed because of the Jews.
In our own country we see a psychosis on a smaller scale. A man from Cavan started an honest business and built it into an empire that made him a multi-billionaire and employed many people.
But he went beyond his zone of competence and overextended himself. He probably thought he could save his business by taking over a bank. But he did not realise until too late that the bank was already in a fatal tailspin. Maybe he was hoodwinked by our friend Seanie, but the facts as they emerge on the news very much indicate that he took insane risks and in effect gambled his entire business empire away. And from nice businessman he turned to crime to try and keep a few hundred million, money that belongs to US, the taxpayers, out of the hands of the receivers.
But the people of Cavan refuse to see that he gambled with their jobs, with their lives.
We, taxi drivers, are being manipulated to believe that all the problems in our industry have been caused by “African immigrants”.
Now, I do not like seeing so many taxi drivers who clearly are not Irish on the streets (of Dublin).
I do not like being a minority on some ranks in my own country, IN MY OWN CITY.
But if I start calling all those immigrants “black bastards”, then I am lowering myself to the same standards set by that Austrian dictator.
We must keep our eyes to the ball: The blame lies with people in luxurious offices, on high salaries.
And even to an extend with people who were paid to look after our interest, failed miserably but lined their pockets before closing the doors of their offices, leaving us to pick up the pieces.
Amen !
It is open to every one Africa included.
AC, I will be a be a bit more clear for ya, if those companys brought in EVERYONE THAT HAD THE QUAILIFICATIONS for each of those companys with no cut off point,and divided the total company wage bill every time a new person joined those companys you would soon see them MOAN and WHINE, they control the numbers so that everyone has a full weeks work for fair pay.Not like our SO CALLED REGULATOR who gave out licence after licence with no cut off point, that the total spend in the taxi industry was divided among more and more taxi drivers, no wonder they moan and whine and vent.
Its a load of bollox. full stop. the taxi game that is, cant wait to get out of it. it is ruined. U want fries with that?
For all you guys are saying, NO ONE, not one of you has been able to go and confront the Regulator….. and ask them: WHY do you still continue to ISSUE NEW DRIVER LICENSES, when you are trying to reduce the number of Taxis?
You prefer to act like the ostrich and partake in “transfer of aggression” when it is obvious that “immigrants” are only a small part of the problem, if at all.
We paid all the way for these “privileges”, be it Taxi exams, Driver license, purchase of our taxis, e.t.c. It is only logical and commonsensical that we use it for the intended purpose!
You will not achieve nada (and you can whine until you whither!) until you purge yourself of “the hate” and focus on the real problem: Those who make it their duty to make as much money as possible, from imbecilic Taxi drivers like yourselves!
ac why is it that just about EVERY post you put up YOU are the one that keeps going on about racism,and how we all hate you. i also wonder why dont YOU go and confront the regulator if you feel that strongly about things, or maybe you think she is racist to , and you wont get a fair hearing
@AC, no offence,but I now have to scroll through all your posts as they are written in Pidgin,
I’m an understanding well meaning,well travelled guy ,but when you post puerile remarks like this : “Those who make it their duty to make as much money as possible, from imbecilic Taxi drivers like yourselves!” you’ve lost the argument.
When you make a comment like this directed at other posters you should re-read what you have previously written :
We paid all the way for these “privileges”, be it Taxi exams, Driver license, purchase of our taxis, e.t.c. It is only logical and commonsensical (sic) that we use it for the intended purpose!
Now we know who pays the NTA bills.
I said before and I say again: all the sometimes very personal insults will solve nothing.
I also stated for the record that I do not like to see the market flooded. Not with immigrants, not with dole cheats, not with retired Gardai. Certainly not with illegals, no matter their nationality. And not with people who have been dumped into the industry to get hem off the dole. These people – and I suspect there are quite a few – have been cheated by the civil servants (who did not serve, instead they did everyone a dis-service !). THE CIVIL SERVANTS WHO GAVE OUT TAXI LICENCES BY THE THOUSANDS. There are many who were laid off and who preferred to do an honest day’s (or night or week-end) work rather than live off hand-outs. They have been cheated big time because they had no idea what it was going to be like once they were in the taxi business. And there is no back door out because we cannot sell (who buys?) their taxi licence and get back on the dole. We all have been duped by KD and the cynical self-serving NTA.
And the more we are at one another’s throat, the more they like it. We are like starving dogs fighting over a few scraps of food.
Nothing will change if we keep on back-biting. That is playing in the hands of KD, Kelly and all the other assholes who sit in plush offices and can count on a decent income and a good pension at the end.
The current mess we are in is not the fault of AC.
I repeat: I do not like seeing so many immigrants driving a taxi.
I have been in the business now for…. holy cow, I can’t believe it is 12 years since we got our “dereg” ! And to think that quite a few are in it much longer.
I remember the days when a taxi driver, doing 40 hours a week, could make a decent living, pay the bills, put the kids through an education and could take a day off. Even go on holidays !
But my resentment must be tempered by the realisation that it is caused mainly by economic circumstances. And they are bad and getting worse. And since there is no unity between taxi drivers in sight there is no prospect of an improvement, not on my horizon !
Excuses excuses,lads this is torment,nta is the boss and they took te napolean approch “DIVIDE AND CONQEER” untill we unite we are defeated,criminals with multi liescens,vehicales with no taxi paraphanlia displad,alan kelly the minister for stickers has proposed rubbish,no more rental of plate i bet the big guns are buying up everything,To me its quite simpe the owner of the licence is the only person allowed to drive.If people demand taxi rentals put taxi rentals out to tender,but get this lads this is going to remain as is BECAUSE we have no proper unioun and unite need to unite our clans,sadly cant see that happening any time soon.
fly,side,and ac , you have all talked about the need for unity among drivers . i to have identified this need, and have asked many times, on this forum for people to meet with me to try and establish a common policy going forward to achieve our aims. unfortunatly my request for such a meeting fell on deaf ears, and was not even responded to . i really do believe that unity is the way forward, so with this in mind i ask again will you all meet with me , and lets see where it takes us . this will also be a chance for ben, and ac to kiss , and make up [lol] . i suppose none of us know each other personnely, but such a meeting would be a chance to get an insight into what we all want from our industry . if any of you are serious about wanting to solve the ongoing problems within the industry, then i ask that you give my request some thought . there is a taxi meeting tonight in wynnes hotel at 7 i believe, i intend to be there maybe, if you are serious we could meet tonight
roy i posted this morning ,which is awaiting moderation . i am just wondering why as there is nothing derogotary in it ?
Well, l have posted a few posers that no one (except for Flybynite) is willing to address …. instead they “some” go about heaping the blame of their lean purse entirely on “immigrants”, especially of African descent!
As long as you “play the Ostrich”, l will keep “reminding you” that you are an Ostrich. QED.
Instead of being at the throats of immigrants, do the following FIRST:
1.) Ascertain “factually by getting the right figures”, How many of the 38,000 Taxi drivers in Ireland are of “African descent”. Now that would give you a “percentage of total” and from that you can “factually deduce” if truly, the phrase “flood Taxi driving in Ireland” is appropriate to use on ‘us’.
2.) If you think and agree that there are too many Taxis on the road (and we all can agree that a taxi does not drive itself, except by a ‘Licensed Driver’) …. it is only Logical that you should try to tackle the problem at the “source” …. which is where the License to drive a taxi comes out from (The Regulator!).
Let them “rationalize” to you why they still keep issuing out new Licenses since last year, despite the “Kelly’s Report” and all the vabooze about too much Taxis and need for a reform.
Is it that the need to “make more money from immigrants” (by granting licenses and allowing them to pay and sit for Taxi exams) much more important than the need to keep the number of taxis down, as they purport to do with all these rash of “SKEWED REGULATIONS”? You cant be crying wolf with one side of the mouth while “milking” the same people you are accusing of being the problem, with the other side of your mouth!
3.) If “illegals” are the problem, l have posted on that issue a few times and made it clear that “enforcement” is the key (not the sort where those charged with that responsibility just single out “African immigrants for special attention while neglecting others).
What does it take to detect an illegal Taxi driver for God’s sake?
In this age of technology and wireless communications, it is a piece of cake to VERIFY EVERY TAXI on the road, on a relentless and continuous basis.
Why this is not being done ….. and “if” it is being done, why some of you still shout and point fingers at Africans/immigrants, is beyond anyone’s comprehension.
*Anyone’s drivers license will contain his picture, so you can be sure that the “name and the face” corresponds.
*If you match this with the Dashboard driver Card, (match name, picture and driver details), you can be sure that the dashboard card is the same person driving that taxi at that moment.
*The insurance Cert, Road Tax and NCT displays all have the same car registration so, you can also match that, on the spot.
*Finally, ALL “immigrants” carry a GNIB card (if not yet naturalized at a “big amount”!), that GNIB card has their PPS number, photograph and name!
PLEASE TELL ME WHAT ELSE ANYONE NEEDS TO VERIFY THAT ALL “IMMIGRANT TAXI DRIVERS ARE LEGIT”?
What more can l add?
I suspect that the Guards know that 99.9% of immigrants are “legit” and actually know who the illegals are (but maybe they are untouchables being “sons of the soil”!)
I find it very hypocritical (though not surprising), that most of the peeps here push the blame of immigrants when deep inside their hearts, they know where the problem lies but will rather vent their venom of a class of people whom they think are vulnerable!
That my friend is wickedness beyond understanding!
Like Sidewinder and Flybynite mentioned, these “divide and conquer game” will not get us anywhere ….than deeper into more shyte.
For one, we will never be united for a common cause like getting all “illegals” out of the business since we dont have a ‘common agenda’.
Too bad!
Sorry AC, that’s another post I had to scroll through,repetitious drivel.
Sorry Boh! I’ve set the filter a little too strict as there where too many overtly racist posts.
AC, don’t worry too much about Franc … he has ulterior motives
Is it possible for the nta logo when put on doors cud be covered by magnets of same structure as logo and same colour as car so it cant identify the vehicale as a taxi?Taxi driver pulled in front of me in temple bar sat night had no area sticker???I asked him where is ur area sticker???he replied whats an area sticker!!!.
hi sidewinder, If the car door has a crease or ledge or a rubber or plastic strip running across it then the magnets wont work, because they need to be flat to the door or the wind will just peel them off,even if its in two parts you will still see the logos somewhere on the doors with there big bright colours smiling out at you ,and there might be a fine for that.
Sorry Boh! I’ve set the filter a little too strict as there where too many overtly racist posts.
AC, don’t worry too much about Franc … he has ulterior motives
…and they are ?
Unlike yours which is hits, pure and simple.
Is it possible for the nta logo when put on doors cud be covered by magnets of same structure as logo and same colour as car so it cant identify the vehicale as a taxi?Taxi driver pulled in front of me in temple bar sat night had no area sticker???I asked him where is ur area sticker???he replied whats an area sticker!!!.
Of course, I’ll send you a link to a supplier who’ll supply colour coded magnets to match your vehicle paint if you’re interested.
As for area I.D’s they’re not even a prerequisite for the SGS taxi suitability test ,go figure.
Thanks Roy, l wont mind him as suggested,
…I dont suffer *****!
Neither do I AC,that’s the beauty of the “scroll” facility,do you like the way I impersonated you’re over use and unnecessary use of the quotation marks ?
As with Roy,I won’t enter an intellectual contest with you,I never fight a man who is unarmed.
^^^^Stop ranting, you’re not making sense!
FLYBYNITE would you and a lot more on here stop complaining because it was you and anybody else who bought a plate after dereg who are responsible for the mess the taxi industry is in today. you said yourself you bought it after dereg.I bought a plate for 87000 punts and it is worthless today because of scumbag hackney drivers like you who thought when they got a taxi they would become millionaires.SO you and all the rest of the ex hacks be happy it will get a lot worse I hope.
Patrick like yourself i had a plate before deregulation, and back in those days, you will recall the gardai doing their job, and the psv inspector. Sadly its all too easy for the illegals to operate now. Just wonder how most hacks feel now about the state the business is in. They were probably better off back then with their hackneys.
Would you ever rev up Patrick! it was you pre dereg plate lords as a group, You brought deregulation on yourselves, you were a pack of selfish, greedy bastards, with no thought for your customers.
You ROY were probably sitting across the road from taxi ranks stealing the taximens work who paid a lot of money for their plates before dereg you then went out and bought a plate like all the other snakes who are complaining now for six and a half thousand euro or maybe you did not pay for it.So now ROY you have deregulation you should be happy.
Patrick the hacks will never be happy, nor will they ever accept that deregulation was a major mistake.
ROY your customers if you have any now have not much thought for you you have a poor vocabularly if you have to call names to the people you and your snake friends stole off for years
Hacks provided a service that was not available otherwise, ie. a lift to or from a venue.
Hacks weren’t the problem …. they were the solution.
Taxis refused to admit there was a need for a LOT more Taxis and so deregulation was foisted upon Taxis AND Hacks.
Time to get over it lads, it’s history.
NO how is it that all the robbing hacks then got taxis if they were the solution as you say.They are most of the reason the taxi industry is in such a mess today.Nothing was foisted upon anyone the hackney drivers too a court case and see the results. Roy its hard to get over the fact of paying out 87000 punts for a taxi plate and then getting two strokes a few years after dereg.
Because deregulation destroyed the Hack business …not the other way around,
Were the hacks forced to buy cheap taxi plates
The hacks destroyed the taxi business and thats a known fact if CHRISTY HUMPHRIES knew then what he knows now do you think he would have brought his court case I dont think so.
Nah, Humphrey’s brought a court case on behalf of Hack companies, because plate lords did a deal with Bertie to encourage Hacks into cosy slavery in order to avail of new plates and therefore having to leave the hack companies in order to become taxi scum instead.
Hack companies were being excluded by the Bertie forum and they were worried they’d be destroyed … so they fought and won …. and are still winning … they’re all big Taxi companies now.
Plate lord greed caused deregulation, nowt else, Hack companies were simply protecting themselves (via OXO) from destruction.
Humphries must be really proud of the mess he created. No one can make a decent living, and plates have no value.
SO now do you describe yourself as taxi scum so you feel right at home with the taxi companies who were hack companies. They say a leopard never changes his spots and you have a lot of them.
Damn straight I do, I was a proud hack offering a service not provided by the greedy Plate lords, forced to become taxi scum as my business model was destroyed by deregulation.
Well you should go out and buy a hackney plate then and that would be one less taxi scum as you call them but I think hackney drivers were the real scum. MINE and a lot more hard working mens investments were destroyed by hackney scumbags.The taximen who owned plates back then were not scum.
@ AC, What language should I type in other than English , so that you may understand ?
Weren’t they Patrick?
People walked home due to the lack of taxis and they didn’t give a toss, anyone that payed big bucks for a taxi plate was a fool if they didn’t see the writing on the wall. And most got their money back tenfold in earnings and from their cosy slaves
So Roy what action should the plate loards have taken at that time.
Easy one that, they should have accepted that there was a need for about 6,000 Taxis in Dublin and allowed the market to be opened up, (it only ever needed their OK) that would have cleared out all the Hacks and Cosies that wanted into the Taxi game, but they were too greedy and wanted to retain their plate value for their pension, even though most plate lords inherited them from fathers …who got them for nothing, instead they got deregulation and their plate are now worthless.
So the plate lords had the power to say yay. Or nay 6000 and that it
That was some power to have.
Just ok sorted
By the way how come plate holders don’t have any power now.
Lets do some Maths/Accounting here:
Conservatively, any plate owner made at least, an average of 3,500 Euros every week, from their plate, in the “good days”. Most made an average of five Grand every week.
Now, if anyone bought a plate for 100,000 Euros, twenty years ago (for calculation purposes, as some got it 35years ago, paid far less for it and are still using it till-date!), …
That plate brought-in an “average” income of 3,500 x 52(weeks) x 20 (years!).
3500 x 52 x 20 = 3,640,000 (Three Million, Six Hundred and Forty thousand Euros, over twenty years).
Now, lets make allowance for depreciation for vehicles (l still see them using 1996 vehicles!) of say four “used” vehicles or three “brand new” vehicles, over these twenty year period.
Lets put that at 40,000 – 75,000, averagely. (10 x 4 or 25,000 x 3,, for ‘used’ and ‘new’ vehicles respectively). Just say 100,000 to round it up.
Lets make allowance for fuel (150 Euros/week x 52weeks x 20years), maintenance (5,000 x 20years) and self income of 50,000 Euros annually (twice the ‘annual average” of most low skilled workers)
Thus, 150 x 52 x 20 = 156,000 Euros on fuel, for 20yrs.
5,000 x 20 = 100,000 on maintenance, for 20 yrs.
50,000 x 20 = 1,000,000 on ‘self salary’, for 20yrs.
100,000 for vehicle replacement over 20years.
Total ‘Expenses’ = (156 + 100 + 1,000 + 100)*1000
= 1,356,000. (in 20 years)
This are obviously conservative estimates as Taxis made more that 3,500 in a week, during the ‘good years’ when only tiredness drives a Taxi drive off the street and passengers where at the mercy of Taxi not being available and they had to trek home. Bus services was neither something to write home about and Luas was non-existent.
Thus, average” income over twenty years = 3,640,000 (a)
Average expense over twenty years = 1,356,000 (b)
Net Profit of plate owner = 2,284,000 (c)
Average annual profit = 114,200 (c/20)
Now, l dont know which “low-skill” job anyone can do, that will fetch you an annual PROFIT (after expenses!) of 114,200 Euros every year, for twenty years running.
Granted, things are no longer the same since around 2008 but all these whining and moaning by anyone who bought plates at prices in the range of 80,000 and has used this plate since then (about twenty years or more), is just borne out of pure greed and selfishness, the same ‘mentality’ still being exhibited everywhere in this business.
You’ve made your money out of that plate, its value, like that of any other “business asset”, will and has depreciated.
Get on with it and stop pointing fingers.
Would you ever be happy again, in life?
Those who bought their plates at an average of 3,000 Euros (2012 price), make an average of 400 Euros weekly. It will take them a century to even make close to what you guys made in ten years.
Thus, you should even be happy that you got them when they were ‘expensive’ and the “windfall” was still available to be made.
Nuff said, the truth hurts, l know!
**** shakes head in shock ****
maths are definitely not your strong point I hope you were not in charge of all the millions of pounds that the Irish people send out to AFRICA to feed all the black babies but now we dont have to send it anymore because your all over in IRELAND.
that guy talks total shit would hate to be in a taxi with him
BEN JOHNNY REBEL HAS A SONG I KNOW YOU WOULD LIKE BUT I DONT THINK AC WOULD BE TOO IMPRESSED JUST CHECK ON THE INTERNET.IT STARTS WITH THE WORDS SHIP THEM
Patrick will do that now, always like a gud laugh. I wonder if he calculated all those figures while at the wheel of his dublin bus.
Patrick that a cracker, will ring my local radio station and ask them to play it, for all those hard working taxi/bus drivers.
Well we will say in 1990 the average fare was about 6 pounds you would have to work 583 hours per week to make 3500 considering there is only 168 hours in a week if you worked 24 hours 7 days a week. NOW theres some mathematician and he said men were making up to 5000 a week
He is an expert on all things Irish. I was a cabbie back in 1990, but i never made 3500 in a week.
Did you get that song where in Mayo are you from Ben
got the song, it jumped out at me
Mary Roninson banned them, as they might cause offence
Hahahaha (lol)
You sure know when you get them by the ‘balls’!
They cant just stop ranting!
I don’t see anything in the bill to block the corporate loophole
Kelly does not have the power to block that, its a company law matter. Its way above his head.
It’s a ball of yarn for all to play with,if the enforcers couldn’t do their job with total liberalization of the market ,they sure as shit can’t with re-regulation,so lads, carry on as before.
Did i tell you Kelly is a then waffler ill tell you again its not going to happen Ben is correct
Kelly would need to change Irish company law do you think he can do that to sort out the taxi game.
He is lacking power to act with legal effectiveness
Incompetent fool just another fudge same old.same old
Nothing will change until there are enough enforcement officers out there to deal with illegal activity. And that wont happen as the nta wont hire them. So we are back to where we started, and where we are likely to stay. In a mess.
I really like your blog.. very nice colors & theme.
Did you create this website yourself or did you hire someone to
do it for you? Plz answer back as I’m looking to construct my own blog and would like to find out where u got this from. kudos
the tooth fairy did it one night
speaking of fairies ben, pratt man has not been on for long time
boh i noticed that ok, something weird about that handbag
did you notice sophia also disapeared at the same time ?
they were the same person sophia was his drag name
ha ha no doubt your right ben
i bet i am right he a total weirdo
can you imagine that yoke driving a taxi
now lads please give an honest assesment on how you think things have progressed in the first three months of this year
[1] do you feel any progress was made towards the elimination of double jobbers ?
[2] are you encouraged by the implementation of the new rules at all ?
[3] what changes would you make to the bill as its stands in its present form ?
[4] do you have full confidence in your representives that they will deliver ?
[5]are you dissallousioned with the nta or do you feel they are competent people ?
[6] are you optimistic for the future of our industry ?
now please give a honest assesment, not the usual stuff were everyone just says the industry is fukked.i personelly am hopeful for the future,because i believe in the new rules however i also believe it will take up to the end of this before we know how succesful they have been
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