What is Wrong with Penalty Points (demerits)?
Roy February 26th, 2013
Penalty points (Demerits) are a method of gradually teaching wrongdoers a lesson.
They have already been proven to be a very effective tool in the promotion of good road behaviour.
Persistent rule breakers have the opportunity to repair their ways, not once not twice, but possibly 3 or 4 times before they are given the slap they deserve.
Currently we have a free for all, the way Taxis behave on the streets of our towns and cities is atrocious, nobody is without blame.
The industry needs to be brought back into line, order must be restored.
Why do the Rep bodies want to protect persistent rule breakers?
Why do the rep bodies want to retain the free for all, anarchic situation that prevails in the Taxi business?
I cannot understand the Rep Bodies decision to try and stop this small bit of potential progress.
Please! Can someone explain it to me?
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- Comments(26)
Roy,
There are two aspects to the penalty point system.
Yes, it can have the beneficial aspect to make drivers more careful.
The problem, aspect two, is the way our lords and masters apply it. You have already mentioned the often near total absence of law and order, the “free for all”.
And this is precisely why many, myself included, are cynical about the penalty points.
I often see the cops with their radar guns on wide open multi carriageways, applying the Law when a motorist drives 68 kph on the Stillorgan dual carriageway under circumstances where 80 still would not impose any real danger to anyone.
I often see drivers blethering away on hand-held mobiles. Cops included. They claim a “waiver”. Does that mean that every Garda is such an excellent driver that they can safely drive whilst clutching a mobile to their ear? I doubt it. No, I do NOT doubt that these policemen and -women are just as much a danger to other road users as us, lesser mortals.
I see drivers using active bus lanes to overtake or use them as “filter lanes”. I see them drive through red, I see them doing this with pedestrians crossing. No wonder they all ignore the pedestrian lights by the thousands. I see drivers reverse on the margin of a motorway because they missed the exit, I see agricultural tractors on the motorways, I see…….. I can go on and on and on. The list of offences I see committed daily is endless. Yet most of these, often very dangerous violations are not pursued with anything near the vigour that “speeding” is. Why? Because it is easy to send a few cops out with the hair dryer, cash in a lot of easy dough for the treasury and then claim that they (the politicians) are on the ball, they have improved road safety, look at the number of PENALTY POINTS we have doled out to all those naughty boys and girls.
No Roy, as long as this penalty point system continues to be abused by the authorities, namely to create a source of revenue for the state and a false record of improved road safety, I will remain cynical.
But I do not disagree that something has to be done to stop the “Free for All” !
Will Roy pay his fines,or take his chances in court? the beauty of which ,the TRD/NTA get FA.
With a mere eight Boxheads to enforce the rules nationwide ,what real change will there be?
zed be glad the way things are now. If the TRD/NTA had their way, soon the only drivers that will be left are the illegals because they cannot trace them. You and I will get the penalty notice in the mail, but “Zedebaya Nairobi”, address given as “47a Fenian Crescent, Darndale, Dublin 666″ will never receive his !
Yes flyby abused by authorities not good .
It looks like it will be farmed out to a private company
With one goal €€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€+00000000+€€€€€€€.
Dark days ahead.
Could I be fined because I never received a letter from the NTA,even though everything else is in order,think I’ll take my chances in front of the beak !!
Quoting flybynight: “You and I will get the penalty notice in the mail, but “Zedebaya Nairobi”, address given as “47a Fenian Crescent, Darndale, Dublin 666? will never receive his !” End of Quote.
After putting forward why you are cynical about the points system, you end it with the above quote of the “type of people who are illegal”.
It is not lost on anyone that you deliberately concocted the NAME to sound “African”!
In other words, its “Africans” ONLY that constitute all the illegality you’ve observe on the roads! That is quite amazing but be comforted, you are not the only one who thinks that way, most “local Irish taxi drivers” (emphasis on the word MOST, not all) think the same thing too.
The biggest problem in tackling real or perceived problems in the Taxi business is that of HYPOCRISY!
Everyone is pointing their fingers at “Africans”, like all the problems you mentioned up there have not been committed (and are still being committed) before the first ‘dark skin’ set foot on the shores of Ireland.
There cant be a honest solution to our problem as long as we all play the Ostrich, burying our heads in the sand (by pointing fingers in one direction) and hoping the problem will magically go away.
The foolishness in this line of thinking is that no one ever cared to actually ascertain the EXACT number of ‘dark skins’ that drive a taxi in Ireland …..and see if their ‘percentage’ (even if we deport all of them?) can change the fortunes of those left behind.
I think it would have made more sense if taxi Reps and the “deport all dark skin” brigade impose it on the TR to STOP ISSUING NEW LICENSES say since 2007 when the recession hit home!
But we all know thats not going to happen …..too much revenue will be lost (exam fees, license fees, roof signage fees, Logo fees, Sticker fees, e.t.c) .
So, its quite convenient to make these “dark skins” the scape goat and accuse them of anything imaginable.
Ask yourselves, are the Cops so stewpid or are they in cahoots or something that if majority of the dark skins (or even all of them) are illegal, they cant flush them out in the last five years?
Let the Cops choose one or two weeks to check and verify any taxi driver whose color is ‘dark’, day and night (and my friends and l have been checked upwards of six times a week, thrice a day in some cases) and tell us the result.
By the way… we are still working up till now and we engage the Cops on daily basis! What does that tell you? …..
If we like (and l use “we” to imply everyone working in the taxi business), we can keep treating ‘Ring worm’ while neglecting to treat the ‘Leprosy’, we can keep chasing shadows while asking for more regulations that does nothing other than enrich the NTA, out of our meager income.
The choice is ours but one thing is sure, as long as these ‘dark skins’ dont run foul of the law, no amount of animosity or hatred will make them “disappear from the ranks”.
You asked for new cars, they bought it, you ask for Door Logos, they paint it, you ask for Stickers, they bought it ….keep asking for more “Regulations” (while complaining about the same regulations!)… we are all in this together, as they say.
Cheers and hope weekend is good for all.
@AC, Don’t dare try and lecture Irish people on race related matters,Africans are well able to commit atrocities against each other,incidents like this are an everyday occurrence all across the dark continent,http://www.scmp.com/news/world/article/1167005/south-africa-suspends-police-after-man-dragged-killed,Whether it be Hutu/Tutsi,Mozambican/South African San,Ethiopian/Eritrean.
I say to you ,Keep your potted philosophies to yourself,I won’t engage with anyone playing ,or pretending to defend the victim, just drive your cab and do as you’re told.
You tell him zed.
jaysuss zed your no can of piss.that will give him something to think about.
i could quite easily understand reps if they were to walk away, and leave the rests of us to it.i think its terrible that these lads [WHO ARE VOLONTEERS ] it must be said,suffer the outrageous abuse that is hurled at them on a daily basis.the most annoying thing about it is the people who hurl this abuse at them have never ONCE put themselves forward as candidates to lead us in a direction they believe is the way to go. they would rather snipe from the sidelines. i dont agree with everything the reps do, or say,but in that case its up to me as a concerned driver to make my feelings known to them. i did not agree with the threatened protest that was called recently,and i told ttnh that on their forum. one of their committie members responded that same day to answer my concerns in a phone call. i thought this gesture was extremely courtious of him. i explained my position that i felt it was wrong to protect the rank robbers from penalty points , and he explained his position also.i believe this is the way things should be. i believe the next steps should be for ALL rep bodies to try to remove the phsyicalogical barriers that divides them,and work together for the betterment of all
You follow them into the abyss if you want to, I don’t follow idiots who haven’t a clue what they are doing just because they are the only show in town, these guys are determined to destroy the only hope this industry has for progress, they are incapable of leading, they simply take the populist view instead if the hard decisions, some of the outcomes of this bill are going to be hard to swallow but this industry is broken and the medicine has to be taken to fix it.
AC,
I just wrote whatever came into my head. I could have written “Borislav Zbdediskinsky” or “How Tu Moon Shy’N”. We are not talking African, Asian, East European here: we are talking about illegals.
And what many legal (Irish) taxi drivers can not understand is how so many relatively recent immigrants can be sufficiently familiar with e.g. Dublin in such a short time, that they are able to drive a taxi, to find their way in a new city, find restaurants, hotels, pubs, hospitals, you name it.
Because very few of us would think that if WE were to move to Amsterdam, Vienna, Copenhagen, Lagos, Madrid, Accra, Moscow, Riga, Dusseldorf, Cologne, Milan, Istanbul, Shanghai or whatever foreign city – even relatively well known ones in the UK, we would NOT in just one or two years be able to find our way including having a local knowledge of restaurants, hotels, museums AND effectively converse with the locals.
Even when I go to e.g. County Clare or Kerry I find the accent sometimes difficult to understand.
Yet, we have seen an influx of immigrants in our industry. In a short period of time, less than 5 years, we have seen the ratio of immigrant vs. Irish taxi drivers (in Ireland, and especially Dublin) seen change from (I estimate) approx 1 – 10 to probably 6 in 10. Unfortunately, Africans and Asians are easier to spot than e.g. Poles, Lithuanians or other Europeans.
This, AC, is an economic issue. NOT racist ! Don’t use the race card. It has in the main little or nothing to do with the discussions here. That notwithstanding some remarks that should not have been made here. Let’s keep it professional if that is possible.
PS AC,
Before you react: I gave as an estimate that in the course of only a few years I have seen a very substantial increase in the number of immigrants in the taxi industry. INCLUDING Europeans (many from Poland and other East European countries), just by talking to a few on the ranks I concluded that over half of the taxi drivers seem to be non-Irish. I did NOT say “illegals”. I did NOT say “African” either !
roy you say the reps are idiots, [i dont agree] but i do agree that some of the things they have sought to change would not be in line with my thinking.but in those circumstances,surely its up to me, [just as its up to you] to TELL them that, you have very strong views on whats right,and whats wrong in the industry,so all im saying to you is GET INVOLVED.there is not much point in saying it here really,unless you are prepared to tell the people who can do something about it ie the reps. tell THEM what you think,GET INVOLVED by becoming a rep yourself,i have absolutely the reps would welcome your imput.some time ago you highlighted the facts concerning the blatent snatching on the green by the crowd at the dandalion.you even proposed placing a picket at the dandy to inform people about this. you sought volunteers to assist in this. i assured you of my support in doing this, i even offered to provide the placard myself [on more the one occasion i made this offer,] but you did not even acknowledge my offer on this forum.this led to believe that you are NOT serious about wanting to solve the problems of the industry. i ,on the other hand, was not found wanting during the time of the burlo dispute with cab2000 i never missed one day picketing, and was there most nights as well.i did as a concerned driver who felt i wanted to contribute to the efforts of other drivers who actually ARE concerned about their industry. i never even worked the burlo rank in my life.roy my offer to you STILL stands about the dandy.in other words dont just say it, do it
roy you say the reps are idiots, [i dont agree] but i do agree that some of the things they have sought to change would not be in line with my thinking.but in those circumstances,surely its up to me, [just as its up to you] to TELL them that, you have very strong views on whats right,and whats wrong in the industry,so all im saying to you is GET INVOLVED.there is not much point in saying it here really,unless you are prepared to tell the people who can do something about it ie the reps. tell THEM what you think,GET INVOLVED by becoming a rep yourself,i have absolutely no doubt the reps would welcome your imput.some time ago you highlighted the facts concerning the blatent snatching on the green by the crowd at the dandalion.you even proposed placing a picket at the dandy to inform people about this. you sought volunteers to assist in this. i assured you of my support in doing this, i even offered to provide the placard myself [on more the one occasion i made this offer,] but you did not even acknowledge my offer on this forum.this led to believe that you are NOT serious about wanting to solve the problems of the industry. i ,on the other hand, was not found wanting during the time of the burlo dispute with cab2000 i never missed one day picketing, and was there most nights as well.i did as a concerned driver who felt i wanted to contribute to the efforts of other drivers who actually ARE concerned about their industry. i never even worked the burlo rank in my life.roy my offer to you STILL stands about the dandy.in other words dont just say it, do it
can anyone tell me WHO THE FUKK ARE THIS FIXICAB CROWD .their adertisements are everywhere on the northside anyway,every bus stop,every billboard,every hoarding,who the fukk are they?
From their page on Swords website:
Fixicab is the latest cab / taxi company based in Swords Dublin. Fixicab was set up be Cab 2000 in the Swords, Malahide, Portmarnock, Lusk, Rush, Donabate and Skerries areas to offer passengers a fixed fare system in place of using the taxi meter. At the moment the fixed fares are only in operation in the areas around North County Dublin but you can always call Cab 2000 and the staff will get you a fixed fare on request
I didn’t call them idiots at any time in this thread, you’re the one who keeps saying that, I may have said it in the past in relation to a particular decision/s they made, they have made many idiotic decisions.
I don’t want to get involved with a group with whom I am ideologically opposed, I like to remain “on the sidelines” as it allows me to give an independent opinion, I have be pro and anti everybody in my posts, I have no side, I’m for progress.
I was never willing to go on a solo campaign with regard to the Dandy, my idea required more support than you alone, and you actually came up with your own solution and were looking for my support, which I am not offering as I didn’t like your solution.
i dont follow idiots who dont have a clue what they are doing.roy this a quote from you earlier in this tread.over on the forum you DID propose protest action against the towrags on the dandy through means of picketing
I don’t follow idiots who don’t know what they are doing is simply a statement if fact, it is not calling anyone in particular an idiot, also that is on the forum (not this thread) I have no doubt however I have called various rep bodies idiots however this would most likely have occurred after some idiotic behavior and related to the behaviour rather than the group, I on the other hand have been called a lot more than idiot by representatives of these groups, I suppose that is OK?
Thanks flybynite.
You’d notice l did not react to your post as l took time to let it sink-in.
“Economic Decisions” affect EVERYONE in that economy, irrespective of whether they are Irish locals or immigrants.
“Racially-motivated Decisions or discriminatory decisions” on the other hand affect ‘mostly’ a particular race or group of people while “insulating” the local group.
Whether some comments here and decisions about the Taxi business are simply and purely ‘economical’ or ‘racially-motivated-economic decisions, l will leave the judgement to call, by others who are not taxi drivers but read this blog.
Having said that, let me be very brief:
1.) In your comment, you used the phrase “We legal drivers” and then put (Irish) in bracket after it.
Does that mean ONLY Irish locals ate LEGAL in the Taxi industry while “immigrants” are illegal?
Like l pointed out, its become too much of a coincidence that when some local Irish taxi driver say “illegal”, the word “African or immigrants”, seems to follow!
2.)You asked how so many “immigrant-drivers” can be familiar with roads/places in about 5yrs?
First, you must understand that “Education and training” makes everyone a “more efficient” person.
Apart from a very minuscule size, most of the African-immigrant l know driving a Taxi (sorry l came down to that example since l know quite a few very well) are “the cream of African society” that emigrated here! Most of them are so educated and articulate, you would wonder why they are driving a taxi (..and l think l have explained some of what informs such ‘occupational decisions’, in another post on this blog).
You should expect them to be “efficient” in whatever they set their mind to do … especially if it involves “learning or memorizing”! ….which is what ‘driving a Taxi’ is all about!!
Moreover, recall that most have lived close to ten years in one place especially Dublin (all over the world, foreigners tend to live in a cosmopolitan environment like Dublin, where they can easily get jobs) …and they are the first set to be forced to take a written, two-tier test that they must pass at above 80% concurrently (a test that was difficult and supposed to prevent them from getting a license!) That they pass the test should draw your attention to the fact that they must be above-average intelligence, (never mind those who think “if its Negroid, it must be stupid/inferior and if its Caucasian, it must be superior”).
As to “rate of learning” in a foreign environment, it differs for most people but your motivation plays a key-part in how quickly you adapt ….and believe me, most ‘immigrants’ are very motivated people, you need to be, to leave your own people and live in a strange environment and yet intend to flourish! The U.K and America is an example of how motivated immigrant families can be and the success that follows them afterwards.
Did you notice that even Irish local taxi drivers who have been doing this job for over 25years, still use a “Sat Nav”? Have you ever wondered how come they were not sufficiently good enough to KNOW EVERYWHERE AND EVERY PLACE, after such donkey-years in driving?
Can YOU confess to knowing EVERYWHERE?
Thus, ANYONE claiming to know every street or pub or eatery is a bogus liar! No one can and immigrants are no exception.
What you need is a “fair/good knowledge” of where you are going.
That is what is in the “agreement” signed with NTA wrt Area knowledge. Mind you, majority of Irish local drivers are yet to take the “written test” even as l write now!
Finally Flybynite,
Remember that before now, Taxi driving was a “last option” job or a ‘retiree job’ (just like most low/zero-skills jobs) and its only the economic downturn that made it attractive to those who cant get a job elsewhere or who have lost jobs that have migrated to Eastern Europe.
Most employers, including Govt Agencies, would not employ an immigrant, over an Irish, with same “attributes” and as such, it is in “self-employable areas” like Taxi driving (where such discrimination would be difficult to enforce), that migrants take to, just to get something doing ….even if it is an ‘under-employment’ for them!
Traveling and living amongst people whose culture is radically different to yours, is part of learning and education and l would suggest that everyone spend say three years living fully “somewhere else”. Its no coincidence that those who have lived substantially outside the shores of Ireland seem to have a “different, more positive view of the world and other people”.
I hope l have addressed your concerns to the best of my ability?
PS: Do you think the current “regulations” that kicked-in since last January 2013, are meeting the purpose for which they are canvassed for? if not, WHY? Would such Regulations have been put in place if the “over-supply” in taxi did not include immigrants (i.e just made up of local lads)?
i think ttnh are a very good orginisation who totally have the interest of their members at heart.one question i would ask though,having read their stated objectives on their website for the betterment of the industry is,one of these key 5 objectives is to seek an end to private,and illegal ranks as stated on their website ,why then do they seek to protect the very people who are guilty of just such behavior ?
could somebody please tell me if you report a taxi for not being registred, what actually happens then ? do the nta actually do anything ?
#bohemian boy.
As you report a vehicle thru the driver check app, a report is generated in the taxi enforcement unit who then follow it up. Apparently, they are allowing a two to three week lead in before they start issuing fines. It should be noted that after this period if a vehicle is reported three times in one day…three fines will be issued!
As regards TTnH, the oblection to the penalty points system is that 1) existing offences are not being enforced so why add more offences 2) MPO’s are not accountable in the same way that Single plate owners are. Why?
points cannot be issued based on a report from a member of the public, this will not hold up.must come from an authorised enforcement officer or garda.
Like l said before, if points are to be issued based on anyone just making a report, its just a matter of time before vendetta sets-in.
The Garda have the mandate to enforce the law, anything other than that is “Vigilante”, cant stand the test of law.